Angry People (The Lost Art of Reasoned Debate)
August 21, 2007
I’ve got to admit that I have been pretty pleased with the conversations we’ve been having here on Sharp Iron. The comments have been generally thoughtful, sometimes amusing and occasionally absurd but for the most part they have been good natured and polite.
I find that this is usually not the case when people disagree over issues having to do with religion, politics , the environment and morality. Especially when it comes to blogging. People with opposing points of view tend to meet each other like Cape Buffalo, not at all like the open minded and respectable folk I am sure they see themselves as.
A common thread, that runs through what now has taken the place of intelligent discourse, appears to be self-righteous anger. Lately I’ve read a lot of spiteful invective on some websites that are devoted to atheist apologetics. Don’t misunderstand me, it’s not that every atheist I’ve argued with tends toward using insulting and demeaning language towards theists, but it certainly is prevalent. From both sides of the debate, ridicule would appear to be the order of the day. Few seem to be listening to what anyone else has to say, most are too busy sharpening their next barb. As a Christian it may seem easy to explain away such behavior, citing the atheist’s lack of enlightenment and their slavish devotion to personal pride as sufficient cause. But I don’t remember being so angry when I was an atheist and feel that this opinion is a very patronizing one.
Besides, the theists, particularly the Christians, seem to be just as angry. Whether you are visiting a fundamentalist Christian site or one frequented by those more ’sophisticated’ liberals, the air is thick with venomous words. Mean spirited remarks are the norm and little meaningful discourse is invited, most dissenters having been run off by the local mob. More interesting here is that the Bible is very specific in it’s condemnation of inhospitable behavior, as well as the self indulgent addiction we call anger. “I’m telling you that anyone who is so much as angry with a brother or sister is guilty of murder” (Matthew 5:22). Perhaps the problem is with how some people define brother or sister.
It would seem to me that this type of anger is indicative of a lack of confidence in a stated opinion, an unwillingness to give an inch, out of fear that once any ground is given then a total rout is inevitable. If someone is so sure of their position, confident in holding the moral or intellectual high ground, then it would make sense that all comers would be welcome. Instead we encounter numerous bastions of like-minded people, clannish environments in which the threat of dissent is thoroughly squashed, not with superior arguments but with insult and ridicule. By refusing to respect those who disagree with them they lose any respect they ever owned.
This angry response to those who would dare argue with them provides little means of converting others to their way of thinking, instead providing ample rhetorical ammunition for potential opponents. Dallas Willard writes about anger in “The Divine Conspiracy”;
“It is a feeling that seizes us in our body and immediately impels us toward interfering with, and possibly even harming, those who have thwarted our will and interfered with our life.”
Anger is frequently used in attempts to force others to change their positions. Even when apparently successful it never enlists opponents as allies, no matter how reluctant. Instead the seeds of resentment are planted, breeding its own harvest of anger. And so the cycle goes.
“All our mental and emotional resources are marshaled to nurture and tend the anger, and our body throbs with it. Energy is dedicated to keeping the anger alive: we constantly remind ourselves of how wrongly we have been treated. And when it is allowed to govern our actions, of course, its evil is quickly multiplied in heart-rending consequences and in the replication of anger and rage in the hearts and bodies of everyone it touches.”
We learn by meeting, and respectfully engaging with, those who see things differently than we do. No matter how different the opinion, no matter how absurd it may seem to us, if presented thoughtfully and respectfully, then it deserves our hospitality.
August 22, 2007 at 11:06 am
Hello, this is an interesting post. My take on the issue is a little different, however. You wrote,
If there is indeed the anger you describe, it probably originates here, in the view that we can “convert others to [our] way of thinking”. In my view, there is a fundamental and unbridgeable gap between the atheist and theist “way of thinking”, the former being based primarily on reason and rationality, and the latter being primarily based on faith and emotion. While transitions between one or the other are little understood, I’ve rarely come across anyone–atheist or theist–who was converted due to debate and discussion. If that is our goal, it will almost certainly end in failure.
August 22, 2007 at 11:54 am
I couldn’t agree with you more, though I do think there are some very good reasons to promote conversations between atheists and theists. I often find it helpful to hear about how others see us (theists) generally and me, specifically. Sometimes the most thought provoking ideas come from those we least expect.
I would hope that an enlightened atheist may feel the same way. Much of the angry rhetoric comes from misunderstandings and mis perceptions.
August 22, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Christians are stupid.
August 22, 2007 at 4:28 pm
What qualifies Christians as stupid? Be specific, please.
August 22, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Well I was wondering how many would fail to pick on the ironic humor in my post so I guess that would be a good qualifier…
August 22, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Oh yeah? Well….atheists are mean!
August 22, 2007 at 7:54 pm
As long as we’re on it, Atheist, read Psalms 14:1.
Touche,
Ambrosia
August 22, 2007 at 9:10 pm
And to Robert–Theism as is historically practiced, claim to be rational–with occassions of faith (which can be irrational).
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, as I repeat a theologian whose name I cannot recall, are religions set in history. They are also teleological, claiming to have the answers for the end of history.
Ambrosia
August 23, 2007 at 8:19 am
Psalms? I’m sure it was on this site I heard someone talking about CS Lewis and what a great apologist he was. What a true Christian!
Even he refers to the Psalms as vulgar and devilish. You should read ‘Reflections on the Psalms’.
In any case, I don’t go for this circular logic. It’s beneath me. You are stupid because you don’t believe my book and my book is true because you are stupid. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
August 23, 2007 at 10:24 am
Good point, Michael. Psalm 14 does not present an an argument will often be found on this site. I can see where that particular scripture verse would be offensive and illogical to somenone who has little regard for the veracity of the Bible. It’s not an argument that I would use.(tsk, tsk, Ambrosia)
August 23, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Ah I’m only kidding. Hence my first response. Don’t feel like getting intellectual today
God, if he exists, is punishing me. I’m stuck in bed, have the flu, can’t talk and on top of that there’s no food in the fridge and the wife is out with friends so it’s just me and the cat, on our lonesome with nothing to eat. Well, I did have one can of tuna but I fed that to the cat so he’s happy enough
I feel horrible. Yuk
August 23, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Sorry you feel poorly, Michael. I have a good flu remedy: 2 Alka-Seltzer, followed by a cup of warm tea and lemon chased with 4-6 ounces of bourbon. You don’t get any better but you stop caring about it.
Oh if you don’t have bourbon on the isles then Scotch or Irish will do. But no gin, vodka or rum. It must be brown.
On an aside, last night my wife suggested I go into work at my second job, as things have started getting a little tight around the house.
I got home around 10 o’clock and found that she and my daughter had gone out to dinner and not thought about me at all. Our larder was near empty as well. My dinner, after 14 hours of work; one can of cold beans and a buttered hot dog roll. Oh, and a Jim Beam.
Just wanted you to know that you are not the only neglected husband out there.
August 23, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Ambrosia imparts sympathy to Christian. He imparts sympathy that Christian rejects the Psalms as a saliant argument in favor of God’s existence. He also imparts sympathy that after 14 hours of “Work” (you must mean 6 hours of work and 8 hours of employment with a small amount of work–most of which is done by P. E.)
that Christian lowered himself to imbibe in beans and Beam, as it were.
The Scriptures are a valid argument–remember Jesus? He said “Search the Scriptures, for these are they which testify of Me.”
BTW Atheist, I have Two University Degrees–and am 2/3 of the way to another. What’s hanging on your wall?
Ambrosia
August 23, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Ambrosia is just a bit combative. I have nothing hanging on my wall except for some nice pictures and I feel not the least inadequate among those who prefer to swim in the alphabet soup.
How can you quote scripture to prove that scripture is true? Somewhere personal revelation must come into play. Perhaps scripture could provoke revelation, but not on it’s own. The words can be meaningless or even suggest the wrong meaning, without the reader having the right spirit.
One thing that could be worse than Beans and Beam would be just…beans.
August 23, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Okay–Scripture doesn’t proove Scripture. Mm-Hm. So Jesus’ own words, “these are they which testify of me” and Paul’s words “All Scripture is God breathed, and is profitable . . .” proove nothing?
I think you need to go heavier on the beans, and less on the Beam.
Ambrosia
P. S. What’s in your wallet?
August 23, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Other than Prove is spelled with one O.
August 23, 2007 at 8:58 pm
“BTW Atheist, I have Two University Degrees–and am 2/3 of the way to another. What’s hanging on your wall?”
Oh, well, I hate arguing from authority. I dislike qualification badges but I’ll play
How does a first class honours from Oxford in philosophy and theology sound? Added to that I can read your Bible and scriptures in the language in which they were originally written. I can read Greek, Latin and Hebrew although my written and spoken talents have diminished over time.
Apart from theology I’m also pretty handy at metaethics and have a masters, again from Oxford (another nice badge to hang on the wall).
I rarely talk of my qualifications, I keep them locked up tightly because you know what? None of what I have makes me right. The fact that I know your Bible better than you and don’t need to open the Book of Psalms when you reference them means not an awful lot. But when people parade their tin pot degrees around as some way of qualifying their argument I feel that perhaps I should shout my learning from the rooftops
In any case, I think you need to lighten up. Talk about angry atheists!
Here’s a little something you might like (and I’m writing this in Hebrew so hopefully wordpress allows it to work
אֱלֹהִים, נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת-אֵל; בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט
August 23, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Uh-oh. Now you’ve gone and done it, Ambrosia. Need any linament?
As referee on this field I have to give this round to Atheist. In addition, a penalty will be assessed against Ambrosia, who I think completely missed the point of my article.
August 23, 2007 at 9:48 pm
What a beast ye are! I’m not concerned about the point of your article–reading (and writing) is a reciprocal interaction between reader and text. You may have a point, but how I perceive what you write is what gives meaning.
Besides, one of my diplomas, the one that says Master of Arts, also says “Reading.”
Ambrosia the intellectual snob
August 23, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Well, atheist, I am impressed. If I had an Eton education, which I still am angry at my parents for not provding, maybe I could join you in all of that fancy-smancy original languages of the Scriptures. I am still kicking myself for not studying classic languages in college, when I was a lad.
English Only,
Ambrosia
August 24, 2007 at 10:29 am
Eton? Not one of those. Thanks goodness. I’m a good old Harrovian
Those Eton boys mix with royalty too much and are far too religious for my liking.
August 24, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Bravo Christian,
I’ve never once been persuaded by the angry, arrogant arguments in favor of Christianity. Actually, I was more sold on Christians who spoke of their shortfalls. In watching those people live their lives in a way that reflected what they believed, but were honest when they fell short of those beliefs, which they inevitably did.
The final step was being able to separate in my mind those spiteful Christians with the swelled heads who were more concerned about proving you wrong than loving you–and vowing never to become one.
Thanks for the post.
PS: Jesus had no college degree that I know of … I mean, if we’re going to go there.
August 24, 2007 at 6:49 pm
It is a mistake to say Jesus was not educated. He was able to speak with the scholars in the temple. He was able to read the Scriptures. He likely spoke at least three languages–Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek–and probably Latin as well.
The image of First Century Palestine/Israel is usually presented as being wrong. While they lacked modern conveniences, the Romans continued the use of minted coins, paved roads, and strong buildings (as indicated by ruins). The region had a thriving economy, being the crossroads of the known world.
The world of Jesus was quite advanced–remember, the Dark Ages were called because the learning of Ancient Greece and eventually Byzantine was lost. Jesus time came in the middle of the classic period. Not the Golden Age, but Rome was at its zenith of power, and the height of its culture.
Bruce–Ambrosia is on vacation
August 25, 2007 at 8:55 am
I did not mean to imply that the times Jesus lived in were not advanced. Just pointing out that the most important things He tought, He didn’t learn out of a book.
August 27, 2007 at 12:42 pm
A great article on this subject by David Aikman over on Christianity Today, called “Attack Dogs of Christendom”:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/august/23.52.html
October 12, 2007 at 4:15 pm
heehee