Thank You for Flying Calvin Air
November 18, 2007
“Welcome to CalvinAir. We ask during the flight that everyone please refrain from smoking. There are two restrooms; one located here in basic seating and one up front in select seating. For reasons of safety we have anticipated your every need. You will be allowed to leave your seats when we reach cruising altitude. At all other times we ask that you keep your seatbelts tightly fastened.”
“In case of an emergency there are four exits; two located here in standard class seating and two up front in select class seating. Only those doors in select will actually open. Those in standard are welded shut.”
“If the cabin loses pressure then face masks will automatically drop from the bulkheads located above your seats. Only those masks in select class will provide oxygen. The face masks in standard class are not connected.”
“If we are forced to land on water then your seat cushion may be used as a flotation device. Only the cushions in select class will actually float, those in basic class are filled with lead.”
“Please enjoy your flight and, speaking for the captain and crew, thank you for flying CalvinAir.“
November 19, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Good post. But then… you already knew I was going to say that.
November 19, 2007 at 11:21 pm
No, I didn’t. But thanks, I appreciate it.
November 20, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Over on Jason’s blog he has posted a little satirical riposte to this piece called “Welcome to 21st Century Arminian Air”
http://brightshinyobject.wordpress.com/2007/11/19/welcome-to-21st-century-arminian-air/
Of course that airline wouldn’t be my first choice. Whenever possible I fly Wesley. After all, we are free to choose, right?
November 20, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Hi Christian….what is it with these flight posts lately??? LOL Just wanted to say howdy and that if i don’t talk to you before hand….have a super T day!!!! Blessings on ya friend…I know nothing sarcastic….it’s tough….
November 20, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Likewise GG. An absence of sarcasm is so refreshing and you are a tonic. The flight posts? I think someone disagreed with me and now we are competing for air space.
November 20, 2007 at 8:33 pm
HAHA! Competing for Air Space – funny!
So are we disagreeing over Non-Essentials here or just being fiesty?
November 20, 2007 at 8:34 pm
So is the Turkey in your header gonna cut its OWN head off?
November 20, 2007 at 9:21 pm
I dunno. You tell me. I am not sure how essential it is to promote either position here, but for me it is a very important distinction.
Yes, the turkey has decided to take a page out of the Sermon on the Mount.
November 20, 2007 at 11:49 pm
I like the analogy given by A. W.Tozer. He likens free will and election to an ocean liner. As long as the passengers are on the ship, they are free to move about as they choose–I can’t remember the rest of the metaphor, but if you look up Tozer’s two volume “The Attributes of God” you can see what the old guy wrote.
I have read Chosen but Free by Geisler–he is what he terms a moderate Calvinist. The Calvinists are what he calls hyper-Calvinists.
Arminius? He abhored the idea of election and says all kind of nasty things about it in his Works, Volume I (which is at McDaniel College Library, if you care to know).
The thing is that in dem days, one had to take a polar stand on such issues. People in the middle were regarded as wimps an because it was the Netherlands, maybe they were thought of as Nether People (or pot heads). Arminians were hunted an killed, like Hugo Grotius (who escaped).
It all came down to a dutch flower called a TULIP, at the Synod o Dort (not dorcs, Chris). The Calvinists seem to have been quite nasty people, and the Remonstrants, ardent Arminians, were nice guys who just wanted to wear the ruffled collars like their Calvinist friends.
So, the Calvinists thumbed their noses at the Crowd from Leiden. The Leidenites came to the U. S. and seem to be formative in several liberal New England denominations (really–but I don’t think they smoked Corsican cigarettes).
The Calvinists moved to Scotland where they took up residence and followed Knox–
who was known to never have said (but it sounds good) “If a man’s a Scot he’s a Presbyterian.”
Some Calvinists also stayed in the Netherlands which is interesting because a whole lot of Dutch are atheists (I read 20% in the 1980s) and most of the rest approve of all that Dutch debauchary and cannabis trade.
A lot of Dutch moved to the U. S., particuarly Iowa, where they set down roots, founding three denominations, The Dutch Reformed Church, The Reformed Church in America, and the We Won’t Join the Presbyterians, they ain’t Dutch (seriously, I know another Dutch Denomination from DesMoines exists, I just can’t remember the name).
November 21, 2007 at 1:11 am
Did Christ save anybody?
November 21, 2007 at 7:25 am
Is that rhetorical?
Youl keep asking it.
Why do you keep asking a question if you’ve already decided the answer?
If the gospel accounts are true, he saves anyone who calls on his name.
November 21, 2007 at 7:27 am
Thanks, Ambruce.
Yes, Jason. Perhaps he came to save everone, though some say there is a list.
November 21, 2007 at 9:30 am
“If the gospel accounts are true, he saves anyone who calls on his name.”
So nothing was actually accomplished on the cross?
When Christ said “It is Finished” he actualy meant, “I sure am glad that’s over with”?
November 21, 2007 at 9:33 am
“Perhaps he came to save everone, though some say there is a list.”
*he says rubbing his chin thoughtfully and pondering what might be with his bible closed*
November 21, 2007 at 10:05 am
Actually my bible was closed when I wrote that. I had just spent some time reading over those scriptures (contextually) that Calvinists often use to support their belief in individual election.
I took your advice, Jason, and went out and finally bought a Bible. Not wanting to overdue it I decided on the Great Big Picture Bible for Kids (not having gone to seminary or anything ) It’s still pretty hard, though.
November 21, 2007 at 10:23 am
I took Bruce to mean that if the Bible accounts are taken merely on their face value and essentially out of context then it is easy to imagine some sort of ‘magic’ property to invoking Jesus’ name. I don’t think it is that simple and I don’t think Bruce does either.
You keep asking the question – why don’t you tell us what was accomplished on the cross? Maybe give us hint, since we must be very ‘cold’ here.
November 21, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Pardon the interruption… Happy Thanksgiving Christian! have a great feast!
November 21, 2007 at 9:50 pm
You’re right Jason. Our arguments are full of vague, pre-determined, rehearsed lines–most of which come from what Bonhoeffer calls the “Cheap Grace” Gospel. Those of us who do not see things in such simple terms are doomed to ponder what it all means, while abhoring vague terminologies. That’s why for the time being I no longer read the Bible and have taken up dense works like The Gulag Archipelago, and have read many philosophers. I have also taken a “minor” in rhetoric–seeing how people have used language to bend and shape meaning through the years.
My favorites? Mill, Kant, and Erasmus. Like Erasmus, I see the absurdity in many Christian assertions, but maintain my belief in the Holy One. Like Kant, I seek a more human-service oriented church that servese the needs of fellow humans with pure motives in mind. Like Kant also, I see no reason to leave the current church (that is a quote from a preface to a Kant work) but unlike Kant, I accept the Trinity. Like Mill, I seek an egalitarian world that recognizes that a silenced voice is perhaps the greatest sin, and sadly, the ruling class makes the rules to their advantage.
So, Happy TGVG.
November 21, 2007 at 11:22 pm
@C,
“I took Bruce to mean that if the Bible accounts are taken merely on their face value and essentially out of context then it is easy to imagine some sort of ‘magic’ property to invoking Jesus’ name. I don’t think it is that simple and I don’t think Bruce does either.”
OK, that really is strange. Bruce makes a statement, basically saying what he thinks the bible says. You say that what he was actually saying was that, that is what the bible says, and that it’s wrong, or simplistic, or some other nuanced idea that really amounts to nothing more than not wanting to say it yourself.
And so, to just try to get out of asserting that anything in the bible is true at all, you then say to me:
“You keep asking the question – why don’t you tell us what was accomplished on the cross? Maybe give us hint, since we must be very ‘cold’ here.”
This whole round of spiritual dodge ball reminds me of that story Don Carson has told about NT Wright, in which, when the ministerial rubber meets the road, there is a significant problem with one’s theology if they can’t assert the truth of what Jesus Christ says about himself.
It seems that you have some intellectual aversion to doing so.
November 21, 2007 at 11:28 pm
like this laugher
“Perhaps he came to save everone, though some say there is a list.”
First of all where do you get the first part? Perhaps is so comfortable and soft. Secondly, the list comment is an idea that has yet to hold it’s own weight from what I have seen. But I haven’t seen everything. soooooo
Let’s take out that bible, perhaps we should break out the passages which Calvinists and aspiring Open Theists hang their hat on and see what we can come up with.
November 22, 2007 at 12:51 am
Which Scriptures are these, Jason?
What are you after, Jason? Maybe we can be of some help on your journey?
Are you after reasoned discourse or mere sarcasm to insult those of us who enjoy banter, but with some respect for the other?
Is there a problem? Why do you pick on us so much?
Were you assaulted by a yard-stick wielding nun in a dark parochial school?
Why the hostility and refusal to answer direct questions. At least my I confess my lack of black and white answers.
If your a linguist, I recommend Joachim Jeremias. If you’re an existentialist critic, how ’bout a little Schleirmacher, or a dose of Wellhausen.
Maybe some J. I. Packer? He’s more open minded than most evangelicals–or how about some John Stott. He’s does not believe in hell, only heaven. Those who are lost simply cease to exist, in his estimation.
Come on, I’ll personally mail you one or two volumes of what I’ve got–yours for the asking (just don’t ask for Wellhausen, Stott, or Jeremias–those are all library materials) Just give me a last name, city and zip code, I’ll send it Book Rate General Delivery, to maintain your anonymity. Or give your address to Chris.
Bruce
November 22, 2007 at 8:08 am
Jason: John 3
Jesus Christ says that he is God’s Son. He also says that he is the way to salvation. He says the he was sent by the Father to save the world. He says that those who have seen him have seen the Father. (He doesnt’ say that he is God, although I believe that he is. Funny, huh?) He says one or two other things as well. Did any of those do it for you? Still waiting for your proclamation of faith.
Happy Turkey Consumption Day! (Oh, all right. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!)
November 22, 2007 at 11:01 am
Happy Turkey Consumption Day? Are you saying that a commercial venture–selling Turkey–has trumped the day of National Thanksgiving?
Cynic!
November 22, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Christian, ya gotta see the video on my blog….it explains why my sister does the turkey, I do the side dishes…LOL Have Happy Consuption….
November 27, 2007 at 12:28 am
Thanks GG, it was good. And that video on your sight was a riot. I hate turkey. Really. For ever.
November 27, 2007 at 12:29 am
Whew! It IS finished. For me anyway. No more long involved arguments over things like election, infant baptism, predestination. Bottom line…not important. And bad for the ulcer. Sorry for subjecting you to this. Really.
November 28, 2007 at 12:58 pm
It shouldn’t be over friend…..I think you guys have alot to bring to the table and looking at it spiritually, if you don’t “reason together” for our sake as well as yours, the enemy has won. You guys are brothers….and you’re my brothers….hopin you don’t give up! Blessings to you friend…:)
November 28, 2007 at 1:18 pm
We’ll see. I’m not opposed to arguments if there is a chance of one guy (or gal) understanding more of the other’s point of view, or even if those listening might benefit from an exchange of ideas. But these doctrinal differences….the various ingrained dogmas….I have come to think that arguing over these points are exercises in futility. And too often they are divisive.
Hey, but thanks GG. You have a very encouraging way about you.